Mike McClaughry interview, 2/05/2000, Part 4

Source: http://www.reformedscientology.org (site taken over by CofS)

Transcribed by Xenubat (Sue M.)

Converted to HTML by Xenubat (Sue M.)

CATCHING A SPY

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: You should know about this in case anybody, uh, you know, because I've told some people and in case it ever comes up in a court case or anything like that, you know, then you'd have it from me. I'd be really the only one who knows about this. Um--well, there's a couple of people, but basically while I was being security officer at USGO, um, there was a fellow, uh, who had been sent in by the Air Force. Um, he was a captain in the Air Force and he was working for, uh--what's Air Force Intelligence called? Uh, I forget the initials for it.

 He was on-lines at ASHO. Uh, he had made an application for the Guardian's Office and he was also making an application to, um, get on-lines at AOLA and do his Clearing Course and Upper Levels.

 I'm being the security officer at USGO. This guy shows up. His name was Bruce, I don't remember his last name, but he was captain in the Air Force. Um, he was appli--he applied to get in the GO so of course I would be somebody that would have to look at him. I took a look at him and I went, "Hmm", you know? (laughter) I didn't know he was captain in the Air Force at the time; just looking at this guy, I went, you know.

 I got a spy in on him. Um, he made friends with this guy named Bruce. They were pow-wowing around at night together and stuff like that. My spy was, of course--his cover was to pretend like he was somewhat disaffected, you know, and therefore could be trusted.

 Once that was accomplished, then I pretended like I was, um, the person--although I wasn't, right? He wanted to get on AOLA lines. I found out from my spy that this guy was stealing materials from ASHO at night and mailing them back to an Air Force base in Georgia.

 He wanted to get on AOLA lines. Uh, he was applying to get on AOLA lines, and therefore I told him--now, he didn't know who I was, right? He didn't know where I worked or anything. Um, I told him that I was the person that worked at AOLA who approved people to get on AOLA lines. So, uh, he thought I was the guy that he had to appeal to, to get approval. Um, so I said, "Well, before we give anybody approval, you know, we ask them questions on a meter first." And, um, I had a Sec Checker, uh, who was also a GO person, her name was Connie--maybe Rhodes or something like that--

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Rhodes, yeah.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: Yeah. Frank and Connie Rhodes?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yeah.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: Yeah. She--you know, I liked her.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: She was tough.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: Yeah. She was also funny.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Um-hmm.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: Um, (laughs) but anyway, she did the meter stuff, right, on these guys. I would sit in the room beside her and I could also ask questions if I wanted to. Um, although this isn't Gang Bang Sec-Check type stuff, you know, I didn't keep people up past all hours, you know, I didn't beat 'em up or anything. Uh, basically our technique for catching people was investigation tech, not the meter. The meter was there to fool him, not that we were relying on it in any way; we didn't care what the meter did. Okay? (laughs) It was just the delusional tactic for him thinking that we--he believed in the meter; we did not. Okay? (laughs)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Um-hmm.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: So that's why it was on the meter. Um--

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Hmm.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: So anyway, I would go down and ask him questions every night for about a week, you know, things that I wanted to know, you know. Did he work for any government agency, blah-blah-blah, stuff like this, right? (clears throat) Uh, we led him to--he, he lied through his teeth, right, to us on every question I asked him. Um, we led him to believe that we believed his answers, right? And, and Connie let him know that, you know, the meter was agreeing with what he was saying.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Um-hmm.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: So he felt safe every night that he left our questioning session. And he went back and he'd talk to my spy. And he would brag on all the lies he told and got away with! (laughter) "Those dumb son-of-a, you know, you know what I told 'em tonight? That ain't the truth." And that's how I got the whole story, see. (laughs)

 So at the end of the, you know, four or five days of doing this, we sit down to have a, a, um, a meeting with the guy, right? We're--he's not on the meter any more. Uh, we had led him to believe all the way along that he was passing this thing. And he came in just happy as a clam, like a celebration, right? Like we were just gonna write him and say, "You're on the OT Levels", right? That's what he thought was gonna happen.

 He sits down that night and, uh, I say, "Well, Bruce, we got a problem here." (laughs) And so I start to tell him, uh, what my spy's been telling me. And he kind of turns white, you know, and, uh, I said, "Now what about you being in the Air Force?" So then he starts to, in the hopes of getting us to, um, approve him, he starts talking to me, right? And he starts telling me--and he knows about what's going on at SRI. There's no way for him to know what's going on at SRI, you know. Um, unless he was in Intelligence, you know, because nobody in Scientology told him, that's my point; the government had to tell him about it. So, uh, he lays it all out, and I say, "Well, who's your Case Officer and where are they and what is your mission?" and stuff like that, and, uh, he's over there sweating, he's trying to get out of this. And, uh, and, you know, in the course of conversing he tells me, you know, he's trying to give me presents.

 He tells me about the SRI stuff. He goes, "You know, you guys are considered to be a national security risk because of those experiments up there at SRI." Uh, you know, "We"--you know, "We don't want people running around here who can exteriorize, who can spy on us", you know. Um, "Also those tests that you did with magnetic fields, right?" A guy could influence him with his thought. Uh, he said that we were interested in that because, um--actually, you know what happened is I told him I wasn't gonna let him on when he spilled all these beans, um, because the jig was up, you know. Um, and he goes, you know, "What we thought we could do"--and that's when he told me "We got a hundred guys back in Georgia waiting to do this stuff as soon as I send it to 'em.", right, what we thought we could do is if they fired their missiles at us, right, because the magnetic field is the guidance system on a missile, if we could have our own OTs turn 'em around and send 'em back down the hole they came out of. See? (laughs)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh.

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: That's what they were looking at. So that's where that whole story comes from; it's from that guy.

YESTERDAY & TODAY

MIKE McCLAUGHRY: As everybody now knows, you know, the GO was involved in this kind of thing. And I'd like to point out something that applies to today. Because the GO and all these things I'm talking about have not changed one bit. Just because they dismantled the GO and changed the name, uh, the hat and the personnel and what they're doing and are supposed to be doing hasn't changed a fraction, okay? It's the same thing. This is our daily work, you know. This isn't something that happened occasionally. This is what we went in to work to do every day and did every day. It was either getting spies in; breaking the law really didn't matter, you know, and doing Black Ops on people.

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